Flushing It Out | Sex and Faith - Tiffany Dawn

This episode covers the shame trigger of sex. In this episode, Samantha talks with Tiffany Dawn, who absolutely loves to talk about sex. Tiffany details her background as a Christian growing up in the church understanding that sex is a "black or white" issue. Her sheltered life led to a lot of shame around sexual desires and it led to a relationship with an abusive boyfriend. Tiffany has come to understand that sex isn't about shame or guilt, but has learned that it's ok to want to have sex and that having regular conversations with your partner can lead to a great sex life. Listen in on her unique perspective on sex as she and Samantha "Flush It Out!"

Show Notes

Tiffany wants all women to have beautiful sex lives, which is why she loves to talk about sex.

So much of what we’re told is either black or white in church isn’t really black or white.  One of the harmful things about the way the Church has approached sexuality is that it is approached as black or white.  

Tiffany talks about a book called, “Out of Sorts” by Sarah Bessey.  It explains that kids need “black and white.”  A lot of people never leave the stage of blind acceptance, though.  The black and white answers feel safe, but they are only meant to be a ‘beginning.’  We need to be questioning the “why” behind the black and white answers.

She grew up in the church because her father was the youth pastor at the church.  Her childhood was very sheltered and conservative.  She was homeschooled.  She never talked about sex and didn’t even know basic body anatomy.  Even the word “vagina” was foreign to her.  She grew up afraid of everything, especially relationships between her and the boys she was interested in.  

In college, she had a boyfriend.  When he put his arm around her, she knew that it felt good, but she felt incredible guilt and shame around how she felt.  She felt like in order to keep his attention on her and off of pornography, she needed to keep going further and further physically.  Still, they never had sex but the guilt and shame kept growing.  She felt like there was a wall between her and God.  Eventually, her dad broke up the relationship because she was honest about how physical their relationship had gotten with him.  

The next few years, she struggled with hating her body and with relationships.  She wanted to be in a relationship, but all of her past struggles with relationships made it extremely difficult.  Eventually, she developed a mentorship with her pastor and his wife and started to share her thoughts and feelings with them, which started her healing journey.  She then ended up dating another guy who was really good for her, which was the opposite of her first relationship.  

You can’t have good sex if you aren’t “in your body.”  She still had a lot of baggage around sex.  How are you going to enjoy sex if it’s just “duty sex.”  She didn’t know her body at all and she couldn’t figure it out.  She need to learn how to be present in her own body to be able to enjoy sex and figure out how to have a good orgasm.  

Sex is about being in it together.  It isn’t a dictatorship or one person telling the other how sex should be.  We need to be on the same page as our partners.  Sex is not a duty.  It’s all a mutual compromise.  

Tiffany also mentions a book by Sheila Gregoire - “The Great Sex Rescue.” This book contains research based evidence for breaking down the myths that a lot of Christian women have believed about sex.  She sees nuance in how Christians view sex.  Without context, it is very hard to understand what the Bible has to say about the subject.   

You can get turned on without judgment.  Learn to understand your body and understand what your body is telling you and take the time to understand what works for you as an individual and as a couple.

Resource for listeners: “The Wedding Night Talks - How do you get from nothing to great sex.  Here’s what you need to talk about… “

You can find more about Tiffany at:

tiffanydawn.net

And on IG: @TiffanyDawnIQB

What is Flushing It Out ?

Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.

Samantha Spittle 0:00
I would love to have you introduce yourself and just start picking your your sex brain.

Tiffany Dawn 0:05
Okay? Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. So I'm Tiffany Dodd, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I, when Samantha reached out and said, Do you want to come on my podcast and talk about sex? I was like, Heck, yes, I love talking about sex. My husband says, If you want to keep me up past 10pm, just bring up boys or sex, and I will stay up as late as you want talking about it. It is like, I love talking about this. And so I'm passionate about it. Because I think there's so many women who don't have a really beautiful, enjoyable and healthy sex life without shame, without obligation to just be able to be like, I enjoy this. And I don't feel like I have to do this, whenever my husband wants. It's just like this true freedom to like, be there together and an orgasm, you know, and enjoy it and all that. And so I just, I want to talk about it. Because I want every woman to have a beautiful sex life. And I just think there hasn't been enough conversation about it in church circles to actually get there. So yeah, so I'm excited to be here. Yay.

Samantha Spittle 1:12
Well, thank you. And as I said, you know, we we are exploring sex shame series right now. But we also have religion coming up. And I said, I was talking to my husband, like, will we do we have this could be a bonus episode, or we'll put it in religion or will really reduce it? I mean, release it twice, because it's so prevalent. And that's kind of where I wanted to reach out to you specifically, because what I found in my conversations is, it almost felt like, to me, none of the none of my conversations in my brain, it was like, I'm having a sex conversation. And we're not thinking about religion, it's two different things, you know, because I want to like one of my goals is how do we normalize the conversations around sex? How do we make it not this shameful thing? And it feels like we have to go to that spectrum. This is my own feelings. No one made soil this way, much thrown into the spectrum of like, Oh, you must have to just jump totally over here. And I started thinking like, well, what does it look like in the context of whether it's faith or just different values? And I'm very pleasantly surprised that my biggest takeaway from all my conversations is that like, what your values and beliefs and things are for you is okay. Like, no matter who you're with, like communicating that being okay with your own boundaries. That's like, step number one, you never have to do or go anywhere that is not good for you.

Tiffany Dawn 2:43
That is something that is not taught in church circles. Is it? Okay, if I talk a little bit about like, the church side of it, too, in today's conversation,

Samantha Spittle 2:49
that's what actually I would love to do. Okay. That's why I was like, you know, what, we've talked a lot about sex. And yeah, we've had that conversation. And it's like, because I was kind of tiptoeing because I'm like, because I'm also in my own like, what two I believe and or what, I don't know if I'm, there's still no, you know, yeah. Which is okay to think that that's like a new thought for me, too. It is. Okay.

Tiffany Dawn 3:12
I know. Okay. No, that is also something I never thought was okay. You know, much relief, though. Yeah. So I would actually

Samantha Spittle 3:20
love to frame today's conversation in the faith, and even Christianity kind of bubble if you will. Yeah. Because I would, there are so many people who I think there's even a fear of talking about sex, because it feels like you have to go outside of your if you if you do, right, no one wants to live in a box. But if you do feel like you're in this place, uh huh. It can feel scary. It feels like you're going out into the open world where there's danger and all this stuff. So I would love to pick your brain of like, Alright, come on, ladies. And husbands. Like, let's have a nice little, let's put it in the Christian framework. Yeah. And talk about sex that it's okay for a woman who is passionate about the Lord also is using the word orgasm.

Tiffany Dawn 4:11
Yeah. Please do. I mean, who made it really? Honestly?

Samantha Spittle 4:17
Yeah, I would love like, that's why I'm like, like, this would be good in religion for December but so long to wait to release it. So that's my only thing is I'm looking

Tiffany Dawn 4:28
ahead. Oh my gosh, I am not that organized.

Samantha Spittle 4:31
So I think we might wait for religion. I'm just like a kid. I want to really you know, want to open it now. I want to hear it now. So we might do both. We'll

Tiffany Dawn 4:40
see. We'll run into

Samantha Spittle 4:42
or today let's let's let's jump into the religion. Let's talk about the purity culture. Let's talk about shame. Because, you know, I don't want that the thing too is from a faith perspective. You know, as I said, my husband and I are questioning and in a good way, right? Like it's like, good to question and to to really dig into your beliefs. And I don't want people to feel like they have to land. You know, in a certain place you've right? Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. And just, you know, but we're all navigating different yet similar roads. And so, you know, like I said, I want a safe place where, you know, Christians can listen, you know, or people of faith, or do even just understand faith might not be a part of their journey, but maybe someone in their life. And so, yeah, that's really important. So it

Tiffany Dawn 5:28
was tricky, too, because so much of what we're told it in church circles is like, this is black and white, this is clear cut, isn't really, either it's not actually in the Bible. Like, for example, growing up and being told, here are the boundaries for, quote, unquote, modesty or physical boundaries, and relationships are all that like we're adding to it. And it's, I feel like there's so many thoughts in my head right now. But it's almost like the Pharisees did that. And Jesus called them on it constantly. Like, God didn't actually say that you're like adding stuff here. And it's too heavy for people to carry. And just to realize, like, we all are going to come to different conclusions like on on different things, like Paul even said, you know, for some people eating food offered to idols is going to go against their conscience, and they shouldn't do that. And for other people, it's fine. And there's nothing wrong with it. And so I think we have to, like, I think that's been one of the harmful things about the way we've approached sexuality in churches is that it's all seen as so black and white, everything. And even in the way we look at the Bible, like this sacred ancient text. We don't understand all of the cultural connotations in these different passages where Paul talks about different things. And just to understand, like, there's room for nuance, there's room for gray. And I think God intended it that way. Because then if we just had this like rulebook, like, who would need God, you know, I remember like, when I started driving, I was driving home from church, I had my permit, and my dad was there. And he was telling me where to turn like, right before I needed to make the turn. I'm like, Dad, could you please just tell me every step of the way, I will memorize it, and I will drive home and he's like, but this is how God works. Because otherwise, you wouldn't need me like, if you knew every step Exactly. And I feel like sometimes, that's like, the way the Bible was written was just so intentional on God's part to have the great to have the nuance, because then it pulls us into this relationship with God to say, like, what is this mean, and realize it's not a cookie cutter for everybody? So yeah, I'm beautiful. I know, this doesn't it all relates back to sex, though and to period.

Samantha Spittle 7:35
Oh, it totally does. But that because that's the thing is, I think, you know, I think we as humans, we like black and white. I mean, our brains if you think of those brain teasers where it says, like, look at the picture. Yeah. And the lines connect, you know, and then look at, it's like, the lines aren't connected. That's your brain. Uh, huh. Punishing the picture. So it's like, just that alone. I feel like our brains are literally wired to just make nice connections. That's why That's why we have chased stories. You know, it's like, we want to make our brains we want to make sense of things. And so the Bible can literally be like, it feels like oh, my gosh, this is it. These are the answers. It is in here. Uh huh. And so you know, and not everyone. Yes, and especially

Tiffany Dawn 8:20
at first, and then it feels like you're smothering. But at first, it feels very safe. There's this I'm reading this book out of sorts by Sarah Bessie. And it's absolutely fantastic. But and as she's talking about these stages of development, spiritually, that kind of correlate with like, physical development for kids, and I can't remember the guy who came up with it, because she's talking about someone else's research. But it starts off out like as a kid, like, you need that black and whiteness, you need those answers. You're always looking to ask questions. But it's not like you're just looking to ask, like, it starts off, you're asking questions, because you want to go deeper. And you might be like, well, that doesn't make sense. Like, why is that? It's not this blind acceptance, it's questions. And then it goes on to become like, in adolescence, like this is a more authoritarian thing. Like if this doesn't fit with what is accepted, it feels wrong. And a lot of people never leave those stages. But you can go on to more internalize it and go through really this deconstruction phase. deconstruction is a newer term for it, but it's nothing new. It's been happening all throughout church history. Yeah. And so you can go through that and come into this place where there's like, it's more grounded. It's more holistic, and she explained it so much better in her book, but I think those black and white answers when we're starting feel safe, but I don't think we were meant to stay there. I think it's meant to be a beginning. Oh, yeah, just yeah, we're saying well said

Samantha Spittle 9:43
love that well said. I would love to hear kind of like a quick story. I mean, that's so don't feel like rushed or anything but to kind of just give us all a framework of kind of how you talk about shedding the good girl and the good Christian girl.

Tiffany Dawn 9:59
Aha. are on the good Christian girl. Yep, yes. Good. podcast. Yeah,

Samantha Spittle 10:04
yeah. So kind of give us a little like, how, what does that look like for you? You know where you were younger where you're at now and how this good Christian girl is using words like sex and orgasm. Now. How did we get here? Tiffany? How did we get here? That's

Tiffany Dawn 10:19
a great question. So I grew up in church. My dad was the kids pastor at our church. And it was a mostly white Evangelical, very Pentecostal, very charismatic church. And I was also homeschooled the oldest of five children. And my parents were very strict about what we could listen to you. I remember like, we watched Cinderella once my mom's like, never again, there's magic in this you could not watch anymore Disney movie. So we were very, very sheltered, or it was a very strict and it's funny because like, my mom is completely a different person now, like, she's gone through this whole deconstruction process. And it's just like, been so cool to watch her journey, because it kind of, I feel like it gives me permission to be like, this is okay, that I'm going through this too, you know, when your mom goes through that, but I note

Samantha Spittle 11:09
isn't that funny? How, like, we still want that permission, like, Oh, if you do, like, sidenote listeners, you don't need your parents permission to action. But isn't that funny how it's like, I even felt myself being like, Oh, that's so nice. Like,

Tiffany Dawn 11:21
Oh, yeah. Wonderful. It just feels like permission part like assurance. Yeah. And it's true. I just have so much respect for people who don't have that parental permission, in a sense, but they still go through it. That takes a lot of courage. But I was, I'm thankful that my mom went through that. But anyway, so yeah, homeschooled, very conservative. And I don't remember ever talking about sex. Like, I did not even know bodily anatomy. I did not know the name vagina. Like I said, Okay, if I say these words, I'm assuming its effects. But yeah, so you know,

Samantha Spittle 11:55
all the words and curse words. I mean, I tend to curse.

Tiffany Dawn 11:59
Okay, sounds good. I don't know. So I just like we, I never even knew those words. And I knew like, they'd say, you know, it's what, you know, married, we're gonna have married people time or whatever. But I had no idea. I, I remember a guy at youth group putting his arm around me one time. And I bid him, like, literally bid him because I just like, didn't know what was okay. And I didn't know what would get me pregnant. Like, I know, that sounds insane. But like, I had no idea. And so I was afraid of everything. And I felt like boys were just kind of not that boys were evil, but like, girl boy stuff was wrong. You know, it

Samantha Spittle 12:41
goes back to that. It's the black and white like, yeah, oh, nothing to do this. So therefore anything is bad.

Tiffany Dawn 12:47
Yeah. And just like, just not knowing not understanding, like, what's healthy touch? What's unhealthy touch what's, what's okay, what's not okay. And I knew not. So all of it was bad. In my mind, you know, at any time, I felt any form of like, excitement physically, that was bad, too. Like, everything was bad. It felt like and if I was interested in boys, which I always was, is I can remember, that was bad too, in my mind. So I get to college, and I start dating my first boyfriend, and also grew up and you know, I kissed dating, goodbye culture. And so I'm thinking, this is the guy I'm gonna marry. And we haven't even officially started dating yet. So much pressure. And he did not treat me right. But I did not. I was crazy for him. And I also didn't want to start over again and have a break up on my resume. And so I just stayed with him. And we started, you know, getting more physical. And I remember the first few months, we decided we were not going to kiss. But we were doing a whole lot of other things. It's like, but we're not kissing for some reason. There was this like, breakdown of like, what it truly means to like, be honoring in your sex life. So and we didn't have sex just thinking

Samantha Spittle 14:11
of the movie Pretty Woman. Like, I was obsessed with that movie. And I was younger and way too young to be watching it. But I just love the fashion and the style and all the styles and all went over my head. But obviously there are messages and it's like kissing she would not kiss so when you just said like we did other stuff. I'm like, No, that's a pretty woman influence right there. They probably didn't watch it because of you weren't watching Cinderella. But

Unknown Speaker 14:34
yeah, Christine. See it's funny. You can get these messages even when you don't see those movies. So

Tiffany Dawn 14:39
feels like they're everywhere. Yeah. So we like I remember the first time I felt really like i He was sitting there with his arm around me. We had shortly started dating and I felt so turned on. And I felt so guilty, so much shame sick to my stomach and just like I cannot believe it. feeling this way, this is bad, this is bad. And I'm like, I don't know what he did that was wrong. Like, maybe put his arm around me, I didn't realize like, that's normal. Like, that's how God made us, our bodies respond. And there's nothing bad or shameful about that it just is. And then, you know, as we went further, it ended up becoming more and more like, I'm doing this to keep his attention. This is not a healthy expression of my sexuality or my desire, this is like, I need to keep his attention. I don't feel good about what we're doing. But I really want this guy to notice me and not all these other girls. And he struggled with porn, I didn't want him to look at porn, I wanted him to look at me. And so I felt like if I just keep going further and further than I can keep his interest and his attention. Yeah. And so much shame. I just felt guilty all the time for what we were doing physically, and we never even had sex in that relationship. But I still felt so guilty all the time. And, like, it was this huge wall between me and God, I just felt like I couldn't even connect with God at all. And when we ended up breaking up, my dad was the one who broke it off. And he asked me, you know, like, I forget how it even came up. But somehow it came up, like what we had done physically, and I was honest with my parents, and my dad's like, called my boyfriend, he's like, I trusted you with my daughter, and you have not been like treating her with odor or whatever. And so it's over. And I remember feeling like I've just ruined my life, like, no one is ever going to want to be with me. Again, no one is ever going to want to love me again. Like, I just have messed up too badly. And how can God ever work in my life, again, from this place? So I guess the next thought I broke up with him when I was, I want to say I was 19. And now I'm 35. And the next few years, I've really struggled with an eating disorder and just hating my body. And I know for me, that was more from the messaging of like being thin enough for a guy to watch you. I felt like if I could be skinny enough, I'd be desirable. But for a lot of women, I've heard purity culture leads to eating disorders, that idea of like internalizing the modesty message as my body is bad. So a lot of people I've talked to you have experienced that as a very common thing. But yes, I was struggling and struggling with like going out on dates with guys and then ghosting them. Because I felt like I was going to throw up every time I thought about seeing them again, I wanted so badly to be in a relationship, but I was so afraid. And I thought that that was just God speaking to me. I thought like, Oh, God showing me through feeling nauseous, but I shouldn't be with this guy. Whereas really, I was like, This is my past pain. Yeah. And not that it was PTSD. But that idea of like that, like, reliving it in the fear of relationships. Yeah. Am I talking too long? Sorry. Oh,

Samantha Spittle 18:02
no. Okay. Oh, that's no, I think to it. But I think bringing that up about, you know, maybe not the formal definition of PTSD, but there's definitely trauma there. And I think that's part that people don't understand is that if you haven't had, like, especially when we're talking about sex, is that, you know, it makes sense. If you've had something that qualifies as like, this is part of trauma, like, no an assault or something like that. Right or abuse. But I think that there's just so much. Yeah, it's a part of our stories that cause us trauma, because if trauma is something that we are not able to emotionally process and if you didn't even know the anatomical terms, right, and then you're going to these feelings. I mean, there's so much and I just was going to ask to with your dad, like, with him being so involved, how did that play into it all with him calling like, knowing more, there's, there's like a lot there to like, why is he like that

Tiffany Dawn 19:01
was one of the most embarrassing conversations of my life.

Samantha Spittle 19:04
Yeah, and I mean, it's, I mean, that's, that's like, this is all like, right, we're trying to like normalize this, but at the same time, you know, gosh, that's just every kid is like, I don't want my parents to know anything.

Tiffany Dawn 19:16
Oh, well, I remember like he asked me like, I honestly cannot remember how we got on the topic but I was like waffling about should I break up with this guy? Should I not because he did not treat me right. There's so much more to the story that I'm not even getting into. He was like, controlling manipulative, like borderline could become an abusive relationship. Like it was really bad. Actually,

Samantha Spittle 19:37
I'm glad you shared that. Not glad it happened. I'm sorry that happened. Oh, but I'm glad you shared that because without that, not that you need to you never know anyone your story but without the context to me when I heard it, it sounded like your dad was coming from a place of like, kind of that whole purity culture like oh deflowered my daughter or you, you know, made her and now I'm coming at you. No. Horses This is an unsafe person, right? That you know, because yes, as parents like, Don't f with my Yeah, exactly happy with that. But

Tiffany Dawn 20:10
because we had asked my dad like, can I have we get married and my dad said, I can't stop you, but I cannot give you my blessing. And like it was he knew that this guy was not right for me. And I was not willing to hear it. And that just kind of became the point like the breaking point. And I was so thankful it was such an embarrassing conversation. But I was so thankful he broke it off, because I just did not have the strength to do it myself.

Samantha Spittle 20:32
And there was more going on. Like that's, I think, important. It wasn't just like you. Right? We're exploring your sexuality, and he got mad that you were not. So I'm glad to clarify that. Because like, I'm glad

Tiffany Dawn 20:43
that we did too. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's you're telling your story. I like have all the pieces in my mind. And I forget, like, only so much comes through. Yeah, so

Samantha Spittle 20:51
they know. But But and then not every detail is important. Or like I said, people are not everyone needs to know every part. But so yeah, but yeah, so I'm glad your dad had your back in that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you were saying you were the few years you were kind of Yeah, thinking it's, it's, you know, your own pain and whatnot, kind of come in through with dating.

Tiffany Dawn 21:13
Yeah. And so I finally went to my pastor and his wife, and they're still really good friends of ours. And I went to my pastor's wife and said, I really want to date somebody, but every time no matter how great the guy is, I feel like I'm gonna throw up, is this normal? Is this God? And she's like, No, you have some healing that needs to happen. And so she's like, how about you come meet with my husband and I, and let's talk. And that started like a mentorship. And I'd meet with them, like every office every two weeks, every four weeks for a few years, and we just talk. And there's so much to my relationship that my parents didn't know, my best friends didn't know, like, nobody knew I'd never shared it because I was so embarrassed. And it felt so like, it just felt so like, gross and heavy. And I shouldn't fall

Samantha Spittle 21:59
yeah, that's that shame. Like, no one can know if they know the truth, then they'll know that i xyz, you know,

Tiffany Dawn 22:06
yeah, and I'm such an open book in so many ways. But there was so much I just wouldn't tell anybody again, that shame, like you said, and so I shipped started sharing these things, and they just pray with me and talk with me and kind of work through some of this. And they were so wise and so helpful. And I started slowly healing. And then there was this guy at church, who, a few years later, was really interested in dating me, and I'm like, I don't know what to do. They're like, I think you just need to date somebody. And now I realized it's like, oh, gosh, I forget the term, but their form of healing is putting yourself back in a similar situation. Because a healthy one. Yeah, I forget the name for it. But I realized now looking back, I'm like, That's totally what happened. Like this guy, I dated him, he was a great guy, and just the way he treated me, like was so healing. And even just like, in our physical relationship, like, again, I had decided to save sex for marriage. And I still did in that relationship, but we still did a lot physically and the way he would treat me because I, he'd be like, I feel like you're trying to impress me right now. I feel like you're not wanting to do this physically, but you're trying to push things because you like, why is that? And I'd be like, oh, yeah, cuz I think it'll keep your attention. And he's like, You don't have to do that to keep my attention. Like, I want to, I want to treat you right. And, and I was like, Oh, you don't like someone would like there's guys like this out there. It just was like crazy to me to realize, like, this is what a healthy relationship is like. And at the end of the day, we decided like this isn't meant to be. But it was so healing for me to be in that relationship. Like I came out a better version of myself. And I like to think he did to he was I feel like we both were really good for each other in that season. And that also made me realize, like, I don't have to date only one person, like there is value to dating.

Samantha Spittle 23:55
I think that's like, part of the narrative of wanting to for especially young girls, you know, to know that because you said it before you said I have a breakup on my resume. Yeah. And I mean, I felt like that within my marriage, like, you know, we just have been walking through a lot of difficult stuff. And I have noticed that like, I wanted to get out of life scot free. Like I wanted to get out with like a perfect resume, that we have no baggage, you know, there's no, there's no, there's no red marks on our right on our marriage on our lives. I don't want to end it's like that is all such, well BS fallacies, whatever kind of words we want to throw on it. And it's like, you know, and it starts. It's like, no wonder I feel this way as an adult. Because when we're young, I went through mine because of the way I grew up with there was that faith background, and I kind of knew the right thing to do was to wait for marriage. It wasn't as heavily influenced because I wasn't in the like evangelical world, but I still felt like that is the right thing to do. And I mean I remember, I had a boyfriend after college, we broke up right away because I discovered boys. Like, I say, I discovered boys. I mean, literally, I met a boy. And it was like, he'll probably be my boyfriend the rest of the way through college like that I met it. And like, well, and then that is actually he asked me when we were gonna have sex, and I was like, What? Are we gonna have sex? Like I just met you? Oh, my gosh, into college? Like, this definitely happens. Oh, you're in the deep end? I didn't know. So all that being said, it's like, yeah, we don't even want to date and have too many on our resume, then. Ha ha, ha. No wonder the shame goes so deep within our lives. Yeah, it comes to sex and, you know, relationships. So yeah.

Tiffany Dawn 25:45
So fast forward to. I've worked through a lot of my stuff. I think I've worked through all of it. And then I meet my husband at age 28. So 28 Yeah. So I meet him as an every meet him. We were actually friends. Growing up. Our dads were housemates with a few other guys from their church before they met our moms. So and then they each married our moms, and we like grew up as kids going to the same church. So I knew him my whole life, but we'd lost touch for quite a few years. And I really met him. We started dating, and I was like, Why do I feel so insecure? Why am I going right back into like, I gotta be sexy enough for him to want to be with me. And like, then we get, we got married and building up to marriage. I'm like, I want to learn everything about sex. I want to have a great sex life. I've heard from so many people who like don't really love having sex once they're married. And I'm like, I have so much fun making out with them right now. Like, is that really gonna go away? Once I get married? Like, I don't want that to go away. But that happened for so many of my friends. So I was like reading everything I could find and still trying to navigate the whole, like, balance of like, how far do we want to go because we decided we didn't want to have sex. But we like, I didn't want to feel guilty. I didn't want to, like equate sex with guilt. And so even like, I think there's a lot of emphasis on women should be the one stopping their boyfriend from going too far. And he did not do that in our relationship. It he was actually more often than not the one who's like, let's stop there. I think like, it's better for us to just stop here. And I think that really freed me up to be able to just like be in the moment and be present within my own body at that time and showing the experience.

Samantha Spittle 27:29
That's a really good point, right there. By the way, you talked about being in your body. And that's so much of our healing, too, is like, we get out of our body for whatever reason, causes that. But yeah,

Tiffany Dawn 27:40
if you're not in your body, like yes, you're like, it's just not going to feel as good.

Samantha Spittle 27:45
Yes, yeah. So that's really huge, you know, a really solid point right there. So

Tiffany Dawn 27:50
I can't take credit for that. And I just don't remember who I heard that from.

Samantha Spittle 27:54
You're sharing it. Now. You get credit because you're sharing it now.

Tiffany Dawn 27:58
You're okay. Um, but yeah, so we I'm like getting, we're getting ready. We're learning everything we can. And I go to the OBGYN and she's like, I've never had a what's it called, again, a pap smear. I've never had one because it hurts so bad. And so I go to my doctor, and I'm like, I've never worn a tampon because it hurts too bad. I've never had a Pap smear, because it's too bad. Like, what do I do? And she's like, well, there's different ways you can like, work on this before or after marriage. So James, and I decided we wanted to wait till we got married. And I was like, but what are we going to do? Like if I can't have sex on the wedding night? Because you know, like, you're waiting. You're waiting all the time? How can you wait any longer? And James is like, I've waited my whole life. What's the big deal? If it's another couple of days? I don't care. I'm with you. Like, this is special. Like, I love you. The first time we're naked together the first time we're like, in the same bed together. And I was like, you're okay with that, though? And he's like, yeah, like, and just his view of sexuality is just so healthy. And like always has been, it's like, this is a relationship. This isn't just an act. This is like an intimacy and like there's more to it than just intercourse, you know? And so

Samantha Spittle 29:06
that I'm hearing, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm hearing open communication, yes, about your guys's needs and values. And being on the same page like that, I think is so important that you have that. So for people listening, because it's like, like you said, everyone's views might be different on it. So whatever yours are, and the important thing is like if this is your choice and your view, then the person you're with will respect that. And if they're not like that, because the during the sex series conversations, that was just every every episode, that was the common theme. Was this open communication? Yeah, and comfort and boundaries with your partner. And if you can't talk about it with your partner, like you shouldn't be having it until you can talk about it. And so I think that have it. Isn't it funny that we're so surprised I used that it's like, wow, he was the one stopping it. Ya know why? Yeah. Like, you know, wow, that's so great. He's so supportive of it like, well,

Tiffany Dawn 30:11
I show you how it is. Yeah.

Samantha Spittle 30:14
And I mean, it's okay. If there's, you know, someone might be coming to a relationship where your values are different. But, you know, working to be on the same team, I think is so important. So anyway, go ahead, but I just thought that was our Yeah,

Tiffany Dawn 30:26
well, I feel like that also set the tone for, I still had a lot of baggage that I didn't realize I had. And it kind of set the tone for like, I still thought like, it's my job to keep a guy's attention. It's my job to keep him from looking at porn. It's my job to be sexy enough. And anytime he has any interest in sex whatsoever, I have to have sex with him. And it kind of set the tone for him being like, that's not healthy. Like, I don't want you to have sex with me because you feel like you're obligated to like we don't just because I am turned on a little bit does not mean we have to have sex. And like, that was mind blowing to me. I'm like, Wait, really? I thought like, as a Christian woman, like this was my job, you know? And then how are you going to enjoy sex? If it's duty sex? Like how does that at all fun? And then it just starts tainting it. So like, the first few years, well, the first, the first year of our marriage, I really struggled to figure out how to orgasm. Like, I had associated pleasure with something being wrong. Yeah, I did not know my body at all. And I just, I just couldn't figure it out. I'd get so frustrated. And James was so sweet and patient, you'd be like, let's play a nights that are just all about you. Like he's like, I think you're getting distracted by trying to make sure I'm having a good time. So these nights, do you not think about me? I am. I promise you I'm having a great time. And like, we are just going to focus on you and be like, have a romantic evening. Like spread out a picnic blanket, get wine, get some flowers, turn on music and candles and just like spend an hour just trying to figure out what kind of touch I'd like to because I had no idea. And so it was slow. And I remember the first couple years just feeling like why isn't it easier to orgasm that I remember when I started orgasm irregulars like Yes. And then I remember the first time I had like, I hope this isn't TMI. James tells me I don't have a filter. But I love it like, Yes, let's go. Yeah, I remember the first time I had five orgasms in a row. And I was like, Holy crap, like, what just happened? I wrote it in my journal. And I was like, This is amazing. Yeah. And so it was like, definitely such a process. But like, so worth it. And part of it was like learning how to be present. Learning how to give like surrender to the pleasure, instead of judging it or trying to figure it out or whatever.

Samantha Spittle 32:56
I just love that you shared that, by the way. Because once again, if we're putting this in the religious, you know, context of faith and sex. Yeah. Like you said, there's this like, Am I allowed to talk about that? I had five orgasms. Yeah, like, because the context I feel like is, you know, if we're talking about this, especially if we got into conversations of details, it's like, you know, one, if that's not, but it feels like if you look into that stuff, it feels from that context, like shameful, like, it's just, we do it, it's quiet, and gets the job done. And then we move on, you know, but it's like, why is this not celebrated? Why is this not? And if someone's not willing to say it, like if you you know, that's why I love thank you to my guests who are willing and able to talk about things publicly, you know, all the topics, so thank you. Like, Hey, guys, if you are listening and you are a quote, good Christian girl, you have permission to have five orgasms in one sitting fine. As a shooting celebrate, like

Tiffany Dawn 34:01
every milestone, I remember with James like, every, like the first time I like figured out this works like I orgasm regularly when we do this. Like, we'd like celebrate that we feel like you remember that last night that was so cool. Or like, you know, the next day, like, I'm still thinking about that, you know, just like, just to like, celebrate it and like feel like we made this milestone and then the next one, and I don't want to say a milestone, because it's not like a competition or a race or anything. Like, we figured this out. And it was just like, it builds a lot of intimacy because you're like, figuring it out together and going on this adventure and not having to have it all figured out right away.

Samantha Spittle 34:37
Yeah. And you're not going to stop because as we get older, like that's one thing I'm learning too is that you know, sex is gonna change when Yeah, what about I listen to this one podcast, all my friends sent it to me after I told her about that we're gonna do a sec series. She's like, you gotta listen to this one on aging and sex and it's about oh, old people having sex and you know, and that's like a total taboo like, yeah, totally out that and Hot, it's like, yeah, you got to, you know, these awkward conversations that we're having. And I think that's too. And so I'd love to pick your brain about that too about you talk to your husband about it, you need to have that, obviously that his number or your spouse, you know, your partner, you have to have that communication. But then like, are you allowed to talk about it with your friends? Are you allowed? And I by the way, that's like BS me saying aloud. But in that Christian world, you know, because there's a lot of that toxic messaging with marriages. And that's, I think, why there's prevalent abuse, because it's like, Oh, you don't talk about your marriage issues beyond your spouse like, no, God's to be in community. That's my personal view. So, yeah, like, can we talk about this? Can we talk about our sex life with our friends on a podcast,

Tiffany Dawn 35:45
right? I mean, I feel like it's so much just like, knowing what you and your spouse are both comfortable with, with sharing, and James like, he knows I'm an open book, he could care less, and I love that about them. So I'm like, I know, I'm, like, free to share like anything with anybody, because he really does not care. But like, I know, there's more private people and who might for sure, feel differently. But yeah, I think it's just like, when you like, talk about stuff, people know that they can talk with you. And so I love that, like, I have different friends who've come to me and said, like, my husband says, a good Christian wife should do this in the bedroom. And she's like, I don't feel comfortable. And I'm like, there should be none of that in a Christian marriage, like this is about respect, and like mutual pleasure and mutual consent. This is not a dictatorship, you know, where you gotta serve the man, whatever he wants, this is this is you're in it together, and what's good for both of you. And I mean, if you can't have those conversations, you're going to end up being guilted and shamed into something and sex is going to get worse and worse, and you're going to dread it. And like, even with James, when we were first married, I'd be like, okay, he used to tease me, he's like, you just have to be above average, don't shoot, we like read in this book, like the average, the average couple of sets this many times, because like, we have to have more than that. Like, there's a type, I don't know, perfectionist and Dave is like, I can't I can't let my husband down. And I think even that pressure, even though it wasn't from James, it was just for me, that still impacted how much I could enjoy sex. Because when it's out of shoulds, it is just not as fun. It is just like, and then it kind of spirals because then you associate sex with duty, and not being fun. And the next time it's even harder to have fun. And so we gotta like get that out. And so all this messaging and purity culture about like, sex is a duty sexist obligation. And Tammy wants that, like you're destroying women's sex lives, you're destroying this. So that just needs to stop. It's all a conversation. It's all a compromise. It's all mutual. So yeah, if you want good sex, if you want orgasms, you gotta be figuring it out together. Oh, yes.

Samantha Spittle 37:48
I'm glad to hear you say that. Because that is once again in the sex series. That was a common thread. And I love that it's true within the context of Christian marriage, you know, for you for what you're sharing. Like, I just, I think that when things get compromised, like values or things like that, it detrimental just we as people, you know what I mean, it should fit in with kind of our humanity, maybe? Yeah, so talking, I know, you talk to a lot of women and things like that. So we kind of, you know, this last part, we were talking kind of about this context in marriage and having that, how do you talk to girls that are coming up now where there's not as much, there's not as much as the purity culture. But it almost seems like that purity culture voice seems smaller. But it's like, okay, there's so much sex in the world. But I think the message is still, it's wrong, it's bad. It's just quieter, you know, it's just not, it's kind of overtaken by all this. And so how do you kind of talk to girls trying to navigate that and figure out their own values and boundaries and things like that?

Tiffany Dawn 38:58
Yeah. So real quick, because I don't want to forget at the end, when, with the married sex portion, I would be remiss to not mention Sheila Grigoris work. In the great sex rescue, she talks about research evidence based breaking down a lot of those myths that Christian women have believed in marriage. So I just want to make sure I mentioned that for all your listeners if they haven't checked it out. Thank you. Yeah. So for, for younger women. So I think in theory, when they're old enough to understand nuance, I want like at a developmental stage where they can get that because they know for a while just black and white, like we talked about, I want them to understand the different approaches within the Christian world to sexuality because we think at least I thought growing up like Christianity is the white Evangelical Church, predominantly white Evangelical Church, like that was the true Christians. You know, that's the right way to do things. And that's just such a small drop in the bucket like a Historically, but also worldwide globally. And so I kind of want my girls to have a bigger picture and not just like, here's the rules, here's what's right and wrong. But instead, like, Here's what some Christians believe. And here's what other Christians believe. And here's why there's nuance. So even in the Bible, looking at when there was sex was talked about in the Bible, like there was often this like, subservient role, like sex was not between two equals relationships in marriage were not between two equals the woman was like property. So we have to keep that in mind. It's not as cut and dry and clear cut, as we think when we just read it without that context. So I guess I want my girls to understand that so that they can kind of decide for themselves like, what do I believe about sexuality. I also want them to know, like, anatomically correct names, like we already use those with my three year olds, because it's just important to know like, this is a part of your body, and there's no shame in naming it. And there's, if you can't talk about it, you got to use a funny word, it automatically gives this idea of it's shameful, it's bad. And so the anatomically correct names and kind of answering questions as they come up to fill level of they're comfortable with, and just seeing your relationship as being full of communication and healthy and loving, like, Mommy and Daddy like to hug each other mommy and daddy like to kiss, you know, like, just seeing that, like, we love each other, we like each other, I think is helpful. And then talking about the like, good touch and bad touch like communication, like you knowing that you can be assertive enough to say your needs. And that starts without even anything to do with sex, you know, but even the way you handle when your kids like, me, I really want this to say like, I'm so glad that you could tell me what you want. We told me that all the time. You might not always get it, but it's so important to be able to say it and to like, honor that their desires. And even when they say Don't tickle me, okay, I won't I won't tickle you, you know, like, for sure. So, like, kind of building that self respect and that assertiveness in as a good thing. Because even growing up as a woman, like, you're assertive, you're a bitch. You know, like, women are not assertive, and like, that's so unhealthy that leads to abuse and domestic violence. And so, anyway, yeah, those are the big things that I like, think of immediately.

Samantha Spittle 42:19
Yeah, yeah. And as we start wrapping up, you know, kind of going back to this context of sex within marriage. And so okay, we've already blown the lid off of you can be a Christian, and you can have five orgasms at one sitting

Tiffany Dawn 42:33
and you should enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah, we take the kids out. I'm like, you know, like, ya know,

Samantha Spittle 42:41
it's hard for you. Yeah, do you, do you? But I think that's an that has been a common theme of like women, especially like, you can enjoy sex you not wanting to have the shoulds. But it's like you should if it's, I love what? One of my former guests Ashley Grubbs therapist said she's like, if it's not a hell yes. It's a no. And it's like, that seems so simple. But I would say if I pulled you know, most married women, it's like, I can't tell yes. I haven't even I don't even remember my last child. Yes. You know, like,

Tiffany Dawn 43:13
ah, yeah, it's

Samantha Spittle 43:14
so common. And

Tiffany Dawn 43:15
so journey to get there. Yeah,

Samantha Spittle 43:17
yes. So exactly. So what have you found, you know, being that you speak to women about this? You know, if a woman is at a place where it's like, how do I start getting because you said something about exploring touch. And that's something that came up in the with the sex therapist, too, about touch and things like that. There's all these things that it's like, questions to ask of like, what does it look like to to? What does it feel like to you when you want to? There's just so much, but I think getting from that place of sex is shameful. And it's just something to check the block to do

Tiffany Dawn 43:54
to get to this place has been not for me, yes,

Samantha Spittle 43:57
I can have your own pleasure. So to kind of start stepping out of that box, and to get into that place where there's more, let's call it sexual freedom, maybe Yeah, yeah. How can a woman start walking that road?

Tiffany Dawn 44:12
I think for me, like when we first got married, I started going to therapy. And it wasn't even about sex. And yet, it totally impacted our sex life in a positive way. And it was like all these insecurities and shoulds and the way I saw my faith and the world is black and white, and just breaking through all of that starting the deconstruction process really started setting our sex life free to and then it became like noticing like, this is what turns me on. This is what makes me in the mood so I can get I can know how to put myself in that spot. And to also like, again, not judge it because there were so many times I start to get turned on and immediately I judge it there'd be that like, No, I don't want to do this. No, I don't want to do this because it's just about him. Really. I'm like turned on. Why is this just about you know, like, oh, Oh, that's off. So it wasn't even necessarily shame sometimes it was, but it was more like, know that I'm just me doing this for him. Really, Tiffany, you are turned on right now this is not just for him, you know. And so like learning to take that and embrace it and surrender to it and say, okay, and I remember the first time I texted James was like any chance you can take a lunch break from work to, like, come home, he's like, what? So like, and just to, like, lean into that and say, like, are the things that like, really get me in that mindset frame, and then put yourself there, give yourself permission to be there. And like, just take hold of it, and it will take time to figure that out. Like, I remember feeling really frustrated for a couple years, because it was, it felt like nothing worked regularly. It was constantly this guessing game, and I hated it. And I was like, I want to figure this out. So it all feels good. But even just being able to say like, that actually doesn't really feel like anything, can we try something else? You know, not that it feels bad? It just doesn't do anything for me. So let's try something else. And so yeah, I think for me, it was like starting to like recognize, okay, I'm interested, let's do this. And like, not try to shut down the pleasure, like I had the whole time I was dating and instead, like, give into it. So it's yeah,

Samantha Spittle 46:14
that's perfect. I love you know, it's funny, you mentioned therapy first and how it improved your sex life. And I think it's just such a reminder how we are so interconnected. You know, it's like your Mind, Body Soul, all of it is so connected and how it really is you you work on one area, and it affects another and you know, I remember in our series, we talked with author Ashley Renard. And in like, it starts off about sex and wanting to spice up their sex life and discovering, after going down that road that like, wait a second, it's not about the sex, there's other and when and when she worked on herself. And then things within their marriage communication, suddenly the sex life was improving. And I just thought it's so true. You know, we think it's just this one thing, but it's so connected. And I think that when we heal those parts of ourselves, because the thing is, we all come to the table with our with our own sex story, right? Whether you whether you wait till marriage, whether you don't you know, whether you have a religious background, whether you don't like yeah, it doesn't matter. We all still have all this stuff and totally can sort it out and like untangle it. I think you hit the nail on the head with that's when we get to that freedom to explore those questions of what is pleasure? What does you know, all this desire and whatnot look like? And I think the more we can normalize that, yeah, the better sex people and especially women can have. So

Tiffany Dawn 47:38
hopefully, yeah, my husband and I, total shameless self plug here. But my husband, I created this course called the wedding night talks. And it's all about like, helping women like me and guys to but it's really geared for women like me who like I grew up, I didn't get a sex talk. I didn't know the anatomical names. And I wanted to enjoy sex. Like, how do you get from nothing to like, a great sex life? And so it's all it's called the wedding night talks, because it's like, here's the things you talk about, here's the things you need to know. Here's, yeah, here's stuff you can do to improve your sex life. So that I feel I just want to put out there as a resource as well. Sounds like your podcast is an amazing resource already.

Samantha Spittle 48:17
Oh, no, I'm so glad. No, my actually my whole podcast and platform is trying to help push people to like, the different areas. And so that is perfect. Because what I'm finding, you know, it's like, I think, and I've said this before, it's like, you don't have to fit in one camp. You know, you don't have to be out there exploring everything for saving yourself for marriage, but then never talking about sex and having no

Tiffany Dawn 48:42
and by the way, purity culture comes with just as much baggage as, as anything like Yeah, so like, don't have sex before marriage. A lot of baggage. I'm sorry. It's like shame. That's baggage right there. And that affects your sex life right there. Yeah.

Samantha Spittle 48:54
Oh, totally random. Yeah. No, it's so true. I mean, well, that's I think the thing is, I think that we go into and this is true, and not just sex, so many things. I think we and I, that's kind of the universal we're the pushing the shame. Well, it's more Actually no, the we have pushing the shame, culture, and purity culture is we think that if we don't, if we stay away from it, it'll, it will solve the problems like, oh, we see sexual, I don't even want to use terms like sexual center and morality, because that's putting judgment on it. But like, you know, you see the destruction that sex can have, you know, the, the, the, because that's true, no matter what

Tiffany Dawn 49:31
brokenness or whatever,

Samantha Spittle 49:32
yeah, so we see the sexual brokenness. So because we're black and white, it seems like Oh, having sex causes these problems. Therefore, if you don't have sex, that will solve all those problems. Right? Right. It's like no, that just opens up which is why kind of actually the platform of flushing out that's why healing your shit is bottom line. What we need to do

Tiffany Dawn 49:53
100 are

Samantha Spittle 49:55
just part of it. So I love that resource. I'm so glad you shared that because I want want women to and men to, you know, or anyone, anyone who does want to wait until they're married to also feel empowered with that choice to feel like that they have to go down another road? And that's for me personally, like,

Unknown Speaker 50:11
what do I believe? What

Samantha Spittle 50:12
are my beliefs? How do I talk to my kids about this? I'm in the process of figuring that out. And like I said, these conversations are just giving me that freedom to one as we said in the beginning, it's okay to not know. And to figure it out, you know, there's so much nuance and gray area and so we can, we can walk it out together and not keep everything so secretive and yeah, so totally. Now, how can people find you to stick? So my Instagram is Tiffany, Dawn IQ B. So I as an ice cream? Well, it's really as the name of my first book insatiable quest for beauty. So I Qb, but yeah, so that's probably the best way or my website is Tiffany. Dawn dotnet. Awesome. Thank you so much, Tiffany. I appreciate you talking all about the sex and I know we just scratched the surface. And so I love that you have resources that people can dig into more and normalize these conversations. So thank you

Tiffany Dawn 51:09
for having me.